[The Ultimate Amlogic Kodi Box] - I Will Build It

1st Official Post

    Hi all,

    [Anger]
    I am pissed. I love Kodi, I think it is an amazing piece of software. In the past, I use a HTPC to run it but recently I brought an Android box and it drove me nuts.
    All those China made boxes are either missing Bluetooth module, fake parts, overheating, too little RAM/SPACE, flimsy WIFI antenna and a shitty Android OS with Chinese text. I am a Chinese but I can't read much Mandarin.

    [Introduction]
    I am from Penang, the Silicon Valley of the East. Not many people know where that is but Intel and AMD has a gigantic manufacturing plant in our island. I am a Electronic Engineer (majoring in Computer). I worked in an electronic factory.

    [Design in Texas | Built in Penang, Malaysia]
    I lacked the brain power to design a PCBA but I where I can sub-con it to local Penang based electronic manufacturing factories to built it. From SMT to plastic injection moulding. My friend who is a super talented hardware/software Engineer in the States will design it. No crappy parts, if we say we use SANDISK NAND, we will tell you which Part Number. We will buy only from approved distribution. I hate it when people advertise S905 but gives you a S802.

    [Why]
    Why did I start this thread?
    Well I need some inputs from you guys as to what makes the perfect Kodi box. I have some ideas but a balance is needed to keep cost down and eventually make it into a profitable project. Yes, I am thinking off starting a KickStarter project.

    [Hardware]
    I have not done enough research yet to confirm which component part number I will be using for these components but they have to be compatible with Linux/Libreelec OS.

    • Amlogic S905 S905X (Support for 4k-10bit encoding)
    • 1x USB 3.0 Port (S905 or S905X doesn't support USB3.0)
    • 3x USB 2.0 Ports
    • 1x HDMI 2.0 (4K @ 60p)
    • 2GB DDR3 RAM
    • 16GB NAND Flash
    • Realtek Chipset 802.11ac WiFi Dual Band
    • External WiFi Antenna
    • Bluetooth 4.0 Module
    • MicroSD Memory Card Reader
    • 10/100/1000 LAN
    • 5V DC Power Input Connector
    • -
    • No SPDIF, No SD Card Reader
    • No AV Port
    • -
    • Anodized Aluminium Case (Imagine Bright Red/Blue/or even Pink!)
    • Case to SOC For Heat Dissipation (Passive Cooling)
    • On Off Switch!
    • IR Bluetooth Remote Control (Off the Shelf Part, building remote is expensive)
    • 5V DC Power Adaptor

    [OS]
    LibreElec.

    I don't think we will add support for satellite TV as this is meant for Internet based home theater system.
    If you know where I can find materials for S905 reference board design, please do share. It is easier than starting from ground zero.

    I love to hear from you guys. Anything you guys can think off? Please do share your thoughts.
    mmk

    Edited once, last by mmk (December 8, 2016 at 9:04 AM).

    mmpp, you are right, S905 doesn't support USB3.0. I think so is S905x. I have amended it.

    That brings the question, how many USB ports does a regular Kodi user needs? One for keyboard/mouse. One for a USB drive. One for an external HDD. Is that enough?

    Edited once, last by mmk (December 5, 2016 at 3:20 AM).

    Well, Irusak. You have a good point. Wetek Hub is indeed a well established product with almost similar spec that I am building. And it has a very fancy remote! It looks great too!

    But the price is the primary factor. Wetek Hub is selling for almost USD120.

    We believe it is possible to provide an affordable solution that is half of that price and looks and works as great as it does. But we do it because it is exciting and it is an opportunity to add / remove features of existing products. I don't mean by reinventing the wheel but if we have a choice to redesign cars, I am sure everyone has some ideas to chip in.

    Well, this thread is to explore that. Is the current product that is available in the market fulfills all the general demands or is there opportunities to go beyond that? What if we can add more features / processing capabilities or even GPIO like those that is available in Pi? Not only this product can serve as a media hub but also a platform for IoT products that we have been hearing.

    The possibilities are endless.
    [hr]

    Quote from Jaaxx


    Unless you plan on completely rewriting audio and video drivers for Amlogic I would run as far away from that platform as you can.

    Jaxxx, well it doesn't have to be a S905 platform in the first place.

    I have not look up the selling price of this S905 chip yet. But I think it is a low cost SOC. It serves the general requirement well. It does 4K easily. If those China factories can manufacture and sell them for around USD35 a set and still make profits. We think it is a pretty decent selection.

    Also, we choose S905 because Libreelec supports it. We don't the capacity or capabilities to write drivers support for it. Only kszaq can do it!

    Edited once, last by mmk (December 5, 2016 at 3:23 AM).

    Well and here is your problem and it doesn't really distinguish you from any of the other chinese box manufacturers, no offense. You just want to build a cheap device and hope others like kszaq will do the software support for free. There is a reason why Wetek devices are more expensive but without Wetek there probably wouldn't be proper Kodi support.

    Please make an effort to consider supporting development. Think about paying developers to develop and support software. You'll have to spend a lot of money for someone that will make his work public and free. Do the math.

    And after you've invested that money another chinese manufacturer comes a long and builds a similar device for half the price.

    Raybuntu, I admit that I use kszaq's release on my unit at home and I didn't contribute a cent to it and yet I paid for my Windows 10 Operating System license. I also paid my steam games too. Occasionally, I watch movies at the cinema as well.

    That is not right. I know that. I am pretty sure kszaq has a family to feed too.
    I have never developed a commercial software before let alone an Operating System but I am programmer. It is a lot of work.

    If this project do kicks off, we have never said we won't contribute to kszaq's work. No matter how compatible our hardware is going to be, it is going to require some tweaking from kszaq. I could do like what others do and start a thread and beg kszaq to do it but we didn't. When we said we were starting on this project, we said we were going commercial. If we are paying our packaging vendor to put a logo on the box, we are paying for kszaq's work for every copy we sell.

    You may not believe it but this was one of the intention of this thread. We need support. Well, if we can't even manage to convince you guys or kszaq, we have no business into manufacturing a Kodi box.

    Well, I beg to differ on a quote you mentioned. While it is true that China's labor cost is generally lower than anywhere in the world. Penang is a very competitive place to build PCBAs. Some of the top contract manufacturer like Jabil, Plexus and Flextronics are based in Penang. We are not saying we can engage them for this project because this is a low volume manufacturing. But what we are trying to say is that, the cost of material procurement, SMT, case production, assembly and testing are within China's higher range.

    So your statement that China can do it for half the price, I don't think so. I am from the manufacturing industry, fake parts, low quality solder paste, poor solder connection, reworks are the common activities on how China manufacturing plants cut cost. Which is why so many of us gets conned once or twice buying China made Android box. I am sure there are many.

    Maybe kszaq has some ideas that he wants to see in a Kodi box as well. After all, this project won't even give birth if I haven't found Libreelec OS that supports my S905. We feel that, is project like ours that may help to keep kszaq going, getting paid for his hardwork. Wetek is based in Europe, so a lot of the profits are lost in currency exchange. People in Asia can't afford paying USD120.

    Quality, reliability and building something that works well is what going to set us apart from those China boxes.

    Edited once, last by mmk (December 5, 2016 at 6:28 AM).

    Quote from Raybuntu


    And after you've invested that money another chinese manufacturer comes a long and builds a similar device for half the price.

    The verb 'building' is a bit misleading here, 'selling' would be a better fit. If you manufacture cheap electronics assembly and parts are the big cost factor, but don't forget about:

    • designing the thing, NRE
    • QA testing during production
    • Warranty/RMA


    And as you mentioned above, software support.

    And yes, Penang is a nice place, my wife has to travel there from time to time to troubleshoot things at their factory there. I wouldn't mind some roti canai right now :)

    koenkooi, Yes, it is not easy to build a product and I have dealt with RMA all my working years. It is crap load of pain. Which comes back to the million dollar question, is it worth it? We could be talking of an investment over USD10k or more.

    It would make more sense to buy semi-working android box, load libreelec and fix the overheating issue and resell them. I think ROI portion makes more sense. But then I like challenges and I hate getting ripped off by China seller again and again. Why can't we progressively move forward and work towards a honest business model and sell products at a reasonable price that WORKS!

    Roti canai is awesome, there are others as well, roti issue (roti canai turned into a spiral tower coated by condense milk) and roti murtabak (roti canai with beef!). Lots of food here.
    [hr]
    Another thing that I wanted to point out is that because there are SO MANY China factories out there. So many variances of S905 hardware available for example different WiFi chip that requires different drivers to get it working.

    Then users will post request to kszaq and ask for fix and upgrades. This is so unproductive. If our project do kicks off, all the hardware component will listed out. No surprises, one build to rule them all.

    Edited once, last by mmk (December 5, 2016 at 8:22 AM).

    What about Hardkernel. They are based in South Korea.

    Edited once, last by GDPR-1 (December 5, 2016 at 8:55 AM).

    mmk

    Hardkernel already makes a quality S905 device, the ODROID-C2, that is less expensive than WeTek's Hub (if you don't need the support and DRM support, don't plan on marketing certain audio abilities, etc).

    Then there's Xaiomi's S905 devices, and I really doubt you are going to beat their prices.

    Sorry, but you're just another middle-man trying to make a quick buck, in a market that is already over saturated with options.

    Edited once, last by Ned Scott (December 5, 2016 at 9:02 AM).

    Ned Scott, Very true, a very saturated market. Tough.

    I thought I would give it a try to sell the product here in this forum and see the responds before we actually do it. The feedback has been very negative so far.
    ODROID-C2 is a very nice piece of hardware.

    Edited once, last by mmk (December 5, 2016 at 9:28 AM).

    Quote from mmk


    Ned Scott, Very true, a very saturated market. Tough.

    I thought I would give it a try to sell the product here in this forum and see the responds before we actually do it. The feedback has been very negative so far.
    ODROID-C2 is a very nice piece of hardware.

    It's not so much that the response is negative, it's more that you dont have any differentiators for the product your pitching. You wont be able to compete on price with the vast array of Chineese made android devices which already offer very good hardware specs for very little money.

    - Amlogic S905/S905X
    - 2gb RAM
    - 16GB Flash
    - 1 Gig Ethernet
    - Dual band wifi

    The above specs can frequently be found in budget China devices for well under 50 USD, the majority of these devices work very well with Kszaqs LibreElec builds once the driver and device trees have been sorted out. The majority of DIY tinkerers will take a punt on a budget device because the prices are so low.

    Then above this you have the likes of Odroid C2 - development boards and Wetek, so where exactly are you pithching yuor product to sit ? Inbetween budget china boxes and the higher priced devices ? Maybe if you can get Widevine Level 1 certification and DRM approvals from Google/netflix etc in a low priced device people will be interested i.e: in budget device terrotiry.

    Xiaomi do have a android box on the market at the minute that offers DRM capibility and Widevine level1 at a decent price, but anyne that follows Xiaomi will know that they make good hardware but theire software support is useless, thats why it's never recommended to buy a Xiaomi android phone....great hardware...rubiish software, very slow reaction to software updates, bug fixes just dont happen a lot of the time...

    • Official Post

    Feedback is negative because we consider good sales and technical support service, long-term firmware updates and good technical engagement from the vendor to be key elements of "value" in a product. If you take the "cheap" route there is no profit in the device and the things we care about most are the first things to be cut to avoid a $loss.

    The reason most of the staff on this project like WeTek/HK is they understand this and are prepared to make a more expensive product that delivers better value to their (very different audiences) of consumers. We have no commercial or sponsorship relationship with either vendor. They simply care about the things we care about.

    lets say people seperate into 2 diferrent kind, one kind looking only for good quality no matter the price, the other only cares for cheap product with all in one capabilities, i'm on the second categories, if only i can find a car with the feature of home to stay and include washing machine in the baggage and stove and frig in the front, i will get it for sure, and you can find most of people like me, particularly who always stare into this subforum.

    i agree for the build the box planning and probably will consider purchase it, if
    - equipped with dvbst2 tuner, and easy to get the driver, so some talented people can cook enigma2 on it
    - remote > good and complete button for pvr/media playback
    - don't care for the licenced audio, hd content as long the price can stay low

    box without tuner already have so many variant on the market, while with tuner afaik only have 2, wetek for 1st type, k1/2 for for the 2nd type, i'm open up your mind as i'm dreaming to build box the my self

    here the battle field
    -box without tuner > wetekhub, mxq, minimx, m9, m8, tronsmart, bla bla... > most of them has bad remote, no remote has audio jack (bluetooth)
    -box with tuner > wetel play1/2, k1/k2 pro > none of the them equip with ci slot

    edit : one thing to consider, the box without good software are useless, instead of wasting you money on developing android, i suggest you hire one good libreelec team for full software development support.

    cheers, good luck with your planning

    Edited once, last by 2ami (December 5, 2016 at 7:14 PM).

    no offense 2ami but if he hires a whole LE Team for software development you are not gonna buy it because its not the cheapest. Some other chinese box seller will bring out nearly the same product without software support but thanks to open source software he doesn't have to. And its not the fault of FOSS here, its the consumers fault. If it wasn't for Wetek there would probably be no Kodi support for Amlogic yet.

    Quote from Raybuntu


    no offense 2ami but if he hires a whole LE Team for software development you are not gonna buy it because its not the cheapest. Some other chinese box seller will bring out nearly the same product without software support but thanks to open source software he doesn't have to. And its not the fault of FOSS here, its the consumers fault. If it wasn't for Wetek there would probably be no Kodi support for Amlogic yet.

    Thats not strictly true, there was Amlogic support before Wetek maybe not as dedicated but it was there. Codesnake was developing for no-name china Amlogic boxes before he was recognised and employed by Wetek, it's still Codesnake that does a lot of the Amlogic work now...

    The market for China no-name boxes would easily be smaller if bigger brands stopped overcharging for their products. yes it costs money to provide support etc...but thats still no reason to sell your product with lower hardware specs than china devices (half the RAM, Half the flash, same SOC), at 3 - 4 times the prices of a China device. Flash memory is cheap in this day and age no excuses to scrimp on this when your charging over the odds..